Monday, November 23, 2009

A Note on Trolls

Hi friends. I didn't blog this week, sorry. I'm just dropping in to clarify my position on commenters who use personal attacks and so on - in other words, trolls. I am not going to be feeding the trolls; however, I have no problem with the rest of you engaging with them (in fact, it makes me feel both amused and supported).

Also, I will always publish their comments because I believe that it's important to see the kind of hatred we are up against, and the harrassment that abortion providers and patients face every day. These are people who cannot even put together a logical argument, or engage in debate; they show up right away with ad hominem attacks dripping in vitriol because that's all they have. They don't like women. They seems to be overwhelmingly anti-semetic. They are not worth our time, and yet at the same time I feel that it's important that we acknowledge that they are out there.

So there. I have published every comment ever submitted on this blog (except for a couple that were spam). And I won't be talking to people who come out swinging. But I support those who choose to. Because choice is awesome. ;)

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wow what a great argument hog....I am a fuckin woman but I don't like them WTF!!!??? I also happen to be a JEWISH woman so now you've struck out twice. The fact that you published another blog simply points to the fact that I've irritated you (which I set out to do...thank you). My argument, and the reason for my entrance into your pathetic site, is just a friendly reminder that KILLING BABIES IS WRONG on every imaginable level and, through your participation, you are contributing to the fall of mankind. Who are you to decide to abolish life and stand by the women you "protect" while they suffer from post-abortion mental illness and breast cancer because of the lies you tell them. There you have it: my argument. That's all I needed to get off my chest and I feel much better knowing that I've let your small list of followers know that you, my friend, are both a liar AND accomplice to the butchering of millions of children. Thanks for your time.

The Pedgehog said...

Thank you for providing an argument. Now I feel more comfortable responding to you.

1. You can be a woman and a misogynist, and you can certainly be a woman and work to control women's sexuality.

2. In the same vein, you can be Jewish and anti-Semitic, or at least use common anti-Semitic slurs against a particular person (hint: Dr. Morgentaler).

3. Post-abortion syndrome or whatever it's called is a myth. It has been debunked. Women who suffer mental illness after abortions also suffered it before; alternately, the issues were already there pre-abortion and the situation (unwanted pregnancy, the real problem) triggered their depression etc.

4. The link between abortion and breast cancer has also been debunked.

AND,

5. Even if there were terrible consequences of abortion, I firmly believe that every woman has the right to choose that risk for herself. Every patient who comes to our clinic is informed of every possible known risk of the surgery she is about to undergo; this is basic medical procedure.

And yes, you did irritate me. I am pretty easily irritated though, so don't get too excited.

placenta sandwich said...

Hahaha - oh man Pedge, we get stuff like this too, and I often DO want others to know the kind of crazy shit some people say, but on the other hand we intended way back when for ours to be a safe-space kind of site as much as possible, so ultimately decided against ever publishing them.

Occasionally I check in on the trolls' comments and notice they think we are reading them every day as they come in, so even though they must know by now that their comments never get approved, they still use the comment box to "talk" to us. It's kind of funny but also kind of scary how little logical reasoning (or perhaps how much obsession with hanging around someplace you claim to hate) resides in their mental space.

Jen Lawliet said...

I just want to say THANK YOU Pedgehog. Especially for point 5. Smoking, for instance, impacts health, yet it is legal. But that does not mean that every person smokes. It comes down to choice. Same as abortion. There are far more health risks with actual pregnancies, if you want to get technical about it, more woman die from childbirth then abortions, so maybe the govt should be anti the former and not the latter.

Anonymous is just another person who sees the world in black and white. Never the individual woman.

ael said...

I am all about "contributing to the fall of mankind" if by "mankind" you mean our current intolerant, unjust and oppressive society.

Keri said...

Great response, friend.

I hope the good lord ravages you with friendship!

Vero said...

Good for you for posting all comments! It shows that you're a bigger person than they are, ready to engage in debate, even one where one side is seriously lacking cohesive thought.

Anonymous said...

I must admit I am pleasantly surprised that my comments were posted and that you have remained civil. I am used to pro-choicers who are insolent and obnoxious and, through your actions, you have proven to be none of these. For this I feel it appropriate to apologize for past comments, debate this topic, have my say, and peacefully depart from the site.
1. I am a half African-American and Jewish woman who just happens to be gay and not religious so the whole "racist, sexist, anti-gay" slogan doesn't wash with me for obvious reasons. I find most pro-choice debaters group us into one sexist, racist, and crazily religious category and I'm proof that this simply isn't so.
2. If you get the chance just google some images of fully formed babies in garbage bags and tell me that abortion is still the right option....I challenge you. When we allow doctors to perform partial birth abortions on fully formed babies we must question the ethics behind such practice.
3. There is a DEFINITE link between breast cancer and abortion which only makes sense as you disrupt the natural pregnancy hormone process. You simply cannot mess with mother nature.
4. We must learn, as women, to exert more self-control in the act of having sexual relations before 18. As a culture we, as women, have more self-control when it comes to dieting as opposed to having sex with multiple partners. We cannot view abortion as a quick and efficient way of abolishing our problem.
5. I would know of the guilt of having an abortion post rape and I will never recover from that horrible feeling. It follows me daily and I had no prior mental health issues so, again, I am proof that this causes emotional hardship.
I apologize for this lengthy comment but I want to reach out to those who will listen because a change must occur in our society so that women AND their children can be protected.
Thank you.

Lady Janus said...

Pedge, 'scuze me; I don't often barge into the middle of somebody else's diatribe, but I gotta weigh in here on this...

Anonymous, get yerself a signature of some kind if you want any cred at all.

"I am a half African-American and Jewish woman who just happens to be gay and not religious so the whole "racist, sexist, anti-gay" slogan doesn't wash with me for obvious reasons."

Nope. Not "obvious" at all. You can be gay and anti-gay at the same time. Just look at all those toe-tappers in the men's rooms, if you want proof. And you can be female and sexist, ethnic and racist. Mostly, what you are is angry and taking it out on people who don't deserve your spite. So back off.

There is ZERO link between abortion and breast cancer except for one thing: they both happen to women.

" We must learn, as women, to exert more self-control in the act of having sexual relations before 18."

Nope. Before 18, "we" are not women, "we" are girls. Besides, it's easy for you to say "we" have to "control" our sexual relations -- you're gay (or so you say). You got zero chance of becoming accidentally or unwillingly pregnant.

"As a culture we, as women..."

"Women" is NOT a culture. "Woman" is a gender.

"I would know of the guilt of having an abortion post rape and I will never recover from that horrible feeling."

That's you. That's not anybody else. Stop projecting.

"I am proof that this causes emotional hardship."

No. You are "proof" of nothing except your own unique experience. No one else is you. So no one else will ever feel or react exactly like you.
Again, stop projecting.

The Pedgehog said...

Thank YOU for choosing civility. Your racial/religious/sexual identity hold little interest to me, except for a mild curiousity as to why a half-Jewish woman would refer to Dr. Morgentaler as a "huge-nosed cockroach"; but I guess that's your business. I do want to reiterate than one can be a woman (yes, even a gay woman) and a misogynist.

I have seen all the pictures of "aborted babies" that have been thrown my way and I'm still pro-choice. Pictures of knee surgery would probably gross me out even more; what something looks like has nothing to do with its inherent morality. Those pictures are a tacky plea to emotions; you would be taken much more seriously in the abortion debate if you ignored them altogether. Also, what you call "partial birth" (and what the rest of us call "late term") abortions are usually performed in the case of wanted pregnancies where something has gone wrong or there is a severe risk to the health/life of the woman. I challenge you to find a doctor in this who will perform a late-term abortion for any other reason.

The "link" between breast cancer and abortion has been debunked.

(side note: you can't mess with mother nature? Really? Am I to assume, then, that you never take any medicine?)

I don't really feel like arguing with you about the whole self-control thing. If that's how you feel about yourself, fine. But every woman has a right to express her sexuality in any way she sees fit without you telling her she can't. See, this is the misogyny part. You want to control women's sexuality, to condemn them for getting pleasure out of sex or for (heaven forfend!) having multiple partners. What magic happens when we turn 18 that suddenly makes us immune to mistakes? Why don't you advise men to also learn self-control? Recommended reading: "The Purity Myth" by Jessica Valenti.

First of all, I'm sorry that you experienced rape. I hope you were able to find the support you needed. I'm also sorry that you regret your abortion. There are very few resources for women post-abortion, but one that you might want to check out (if you haven't already)is Exhale. It is a free, non-judgemental hotline for women who have had abortions.

I stand by my assertion that post-abortion syndrome does not exist. Your guilt is a result of not being happy with the choice you made, not with abortion. Abortion, adoption and parenting are neutral agents. We're not working towards every woman choosing a particular one; we're trying to make sure that every woman HAS THAT CHOICE. Sometimes it happens that a woman makes a choice that turns out not to be right for her, and that is difficult. I hope that some day those women will be able to get the support they need. But I would NEVER say we need to take away one of those choices because of it. I sympathise with your pain; but please don't use it to punish women for whom abortion is the right choice.

The Pedgehog said...

*that should be "in this country" at the end of the second paragraph.

Anonymous said...

I didn't ask you to view these pictures as a means of visually disgusting you; it was simply to allow people to KNOW without a reasonable doubt that these "clump of cells" were/are indeed human beings. Members of my family are Holocaust survivors and they were not considered human beings at the time so, throughout history, humans have attemped to label who IS a human being and who IS NOT a human being. All I'm saying is to consider that you might be wrong in assuming that these babies are not human beings. By the way I had a let term abortion and they did not know of my history and the baby was perfectly normal by all accounts. Just because I'm Jewish does not mean that I have to stand by what my fellow Jewish men are doing. I don't hate the person, I simply hate what he stands for. One day people will realize, I'm quite sure, that we've made a BIG mistake here!

The Pedgehog said...

Straw man. I never argued that babies weren't human beings.

And I didn't mean Jewish people have to stand by what other Jewish people were doing. I wondered why a Jewish person would use anti-Semetic language against another Jewish person.

"By the way I had a let term abortion and they did not know of my history and the baby was perfectly normal by all accounts."

Uh-huh. And I suppose you have a bridge to sell me as well. Which doctor was that who performed it?

Anonymous said...

Well I think it goes without saying that as Jay Leno has a huge chin so does Morgenthaler have a huge nose (I too have a prominent beak...). The cockroach part was in reference to my utter dislike of his profession much the same as you or I call someone an asshole when we disagree with their choices or actions. Dr. Carhart performed it at 28 weeks. Are you not in favor of late term abortions if you acknowledge that babies are humans?

The Pedgehog said...

Sorry, I think we were speaking at cross purposes - I said a doctor in *this* country. But since we're talking about it, if there was nothing wrong with you or the pregnancy, why did you wait so long? (if you don't mind my asking)

Your explanation for your insult of Dr. M. is interesting. I'm just surprised that, as a Jewish person, you didn't realize that what you said is a combination of two very common ways of insulting Jews, and thus had definite anti-Semetic undertones. You should be more careful in your word choice.

Yes, babies are humans (science fact!). Yes, I am in favour of abortion being legal throughout pregnancy for any reason. I am pro-choice, no exceptions.

Anonymous said...

Like the show "I didn't know I was pregnant", I was getting a period monthly and no symptoms....seriously until I got an ultrasound for a kidney stone and found out. I can't believe that you acknowledge that babies are humans AND that aborting them is okay...I just cannot understand but I guess that's why we're on opposite sides of the spectrum. It's too bad because you seem like a very intelligent person who is steadfast for the cause. We could use more people like you for our team. How did you come upon this cause if you don't mind my asking? Do you have personal experience or do you know of a woman who couldn't have access to an abortion and it caused you to feel this way about the cause? I know mine was purely out of the guilt I felt and wanting to do something about it.

The Pedgehog said...

I find it interesting that you seem surprised that I am intelligent and civil; I think if you approached most pro-choice people calmly with rational arguments (instead of barrelling in to call them ugly baby killers) you would find most of them to be intelligent, kind people. Most of the pro-choicers I know certainly are.

I have always been pro-choice, I don't have any interesting "aha" moments to share. I fell into this particular job through happenstance and good timing.

You would think that even though you regret your abortion, you would recognize how fortunate you were to have been allowed to make the choice. Your personal experience is NOT the same as other people's, so why do you want to take the right to choose away from other women? Like Janus says, you are projecting.

For example, if I had a child and then I had horrible post-partum depression, and regretted giving birth for the rest of my life, would the logical step be to make sure that every other woman had to have an abortion? Because I regretted my decision so much?

Your decision is your own, your circumstances are your own. You can't assume other women will go through what you did and feel the same way about their choices as you do. Sure some women regret their abortions (or their parenting choice, or their adoption) but every woman still deserves the right to make that choice for herself.

R said...

Pedgehog I <3 you, thanks for being such a stand-up prochoice blogger!

Anonymous said...

Oh no no no.....the sites and protests I have experienced have not had ANY social graces...they were ruthless, insolent, and just plain rude. This is why I acted the way I did (because Im used to this behavior from your party and I've learned, afetr being civil in the past, that this behavior didn't wash. So I adapted a more vulgar and aggressive approach in response). I admit my actions on this site were premature but I have encountered some truly vicious individuals on the pro-choice side. That being said I want to thank you for this debate. It is obvious that you are committed to your cause. I am not a religious freak but I do have faith in God and I will say, as you probably roll your eyes, that my dear friend I will pray for you that God will show you that this is not moral or ethical. I am done now and will bother you no more. Like I stated previously: I just wanted to be heard and speak for those who cannot defend themselves: the millions of unborn children who are killed each year in this country. I thank you for your allowance of my opinion on your site and listening to my side of the story. With peace and love I depart.

Magos said...

I'm sorry all of what you say may be true, but it isn't passing my smell test. There's simply too much convenient information. You're a member of the most restrictive minority group I've encountered on the internet. It seems like a caricature.

If abortion was linked to breast cancer then spontaneous abortions and miscarriages would be responsible for most cases, and there would be tons of reports about it.

If you think abortion is evil, then you must want it to be illegal.

Do you understand that rates of women seeking abortions are similar between countries where it's legal and illegal?

What penalties should there be for a women who gets an abortion?

Anonymous said...

Actually, From ALL the evidence I see that the Bible is more Pro-Choice than Pro-Abortion and more Pro-Abortion than Pro-Life. God is Pro-Choice. Unfortunately, denying women rights merely based on their biology IS misogynistic. And that IS the only reason ALL but ONE PLer have given me for denying ONLY women the right to decide WHO uses their body, WHEN it is used and HOW it is used.

Did you maybe wonder why the response from PCers was what it was? Maybe because they, themSELVES have experienced similar bitterness from the PL side and dealt with it in the same manner that YOU have, by being aggressive back???

No children are involved in abortions.

Anonymous said...

Well I wasn't going to post further comments but, in my quest to voice my opinion in honor of those who cannot, I will. Magos a spontaneous abortion/miscarriage is STILL a natural process whereas an alective procedure is NOT. Mother Nature cannot be replicated or manipulated without consequences. Anonymous you say that abortion doesn't involve children: a beating heart can be observed on US at 6 weeks and your telling me this isn't a person or, if nothing else, the POTENTIAL for a human being. Who are we, as mere mortal beings, to decide whol ives and who does not live. I wish pro-choicers would just come out and say that they are fighting for the woman's life without considering the other life; this way, at least, they would be admitting that there are 2 lives in consideration or, as previously stated, the potential for life.

Anonymous said...

I just found this blog. Awesome! Keep up the good work.

Magos said...

There obviously has to be a screw up of the hormones during spontaneous abortions, the body doesn't "prepare" for this case it happens suddenly.

So in either spontaneous or medical abortion there is a hormone interruption (and yes I'm assuming that part of the poster's comments is valid) so unless there is some undefinable quality about a medical abortion then both must have this alleged connection with breast cancer.

"All natural" isn't a synonym for never does harm. Every day the majority of us living is a testament to how much good we can do thwarting mother nature. Take just small pox. How many of us would be dead had we never kicked mother nature to the curb on just this one disease?

As to the beating heart and potential. What if the fetus develops with only lower brain function? The beating heart is supporting a person who will never have a single thought. What if the fetus develops a condition where it's life is minutes long and in severe pain? When we talk about potentials, accept that the potentials also include a life better off not lived.

The only things the anti-choice movement is seeking is an end to medical abortions and the return to the coat hanger and back alley abortions. Abortions happen whether they are illegal or not. You are free to believe that abortions are reprehensible but your beliefs aren't other's beliefs and the option you're trying to force on others leads to women dying.

You never answered my question what penalty should a women receive for having an illegal abortion?

Anonymous said...

Shame on you! Pregnancy is NOT a disease! Smallpox is a potentially virulent bacteria; there is no comparison. Prior to a spontaneous abortion the body prepares itself by decreasing the hormone progesterone which leads to a shrp decrease in pregnancy symptoms (this is why many women, prior to miscarriage, say they feel as if they are no longer pregnant). It is a slow and deliberate bodily process whereas placing a surgical instrument and ridding the body of an established pregnancy is an abrupt act and, thus, the slow decrease in hormonal pattern is not observed. Why is it that your side always argues the same point about anencephaly? Do you know that this represents less than 1% of the American population. Granted the baby would indeed pass on at birth but at least it would be a NATURAL death instead of an act CHOSEN by other people. Let's not kid ourselves, most of you, including Pedgehog, are for abortion regardless at which point in gestation it occurs (including late-term which, if you google the images, is clearly a baby!). Most abortions are performed out of convenience for the woman and not because of some detected defect in the child. I'm also sick of this "coat hanger" propaganda! Let me make this VERY clear: I NEVER WANT TO SEE WOMEN USING COATHANGERS TO KILL THEIR CHILDREN! Perhaps if abortion were outlawed women would think twice about sleeping with someone. This is not a free world (although you would like to think it is!). There are consequences to every action we make. One of them obviously being that if you spread your legs you MAY become pregnant...end of story. You reap what you sow as an individual and you cannot just conveniently eliminate the problem once it occurs because of decisions YOU have made! I'm not trying to force my opinions on anybody....I'm just merely stating them. In conclusion I'm not the one to decide the penalty. The Almighty Creator does. I can assure you it won't be pretty when He casts judgement on those who have taken His laws into their own hands.

HB said...

I just leaned back in my chair and spread my legs. Oh damn, now I'm pregnant.

Magos said...

So are you unwilling or unable to answer my question?

Come on, what earthly penalty should these women receive?

I never said pregnancy was a disease, I was saying thwarting mother nature has worked out phenomenally well for the human species. By fighting mother nature we are doing much better than if we followed her rules.

Show me a peer-reviewed study that definitively shows the link between abortion and breast cancer. Even if true, a breast cancer link is a reason for an individual to choose not get an abortion, not a reason to ban them. We still haven't made cigarettes illegal. So the breast cancer argument is void since it's not a reason to ban abortions.

You're the one who talked about potential, I was pointing out that potential is a bullshit argument. There's potential for life, or for suffering. It's what actually happens that matters.

So what part of abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is legal or illegal don't you understand?

Maybe you're not consciously for the coat hanger, but what do you think the consequences of making abortion illegal are? How many women have died because it was illegal to perform a safe abortion?
That is what anti-choice movement seeks whether you desire it or not. Sorry that's the truth.

Sure, put it all on the women. Apparently disembodied dicks just fly around waiting for women to spread 'em.

Finally,
If punishment is awaiting in heaven then why worry about it?

God is omniscient so he'd had to be a real sadist to en-soul a fetus that he knows will be aborted.

Lady Janus said...

"... a beating heart can be observed on US at 6 weeks and your telling me this isn't a person or, if nothing else, the POTENTIAL for a human being."

Yes.

It also has the POTENTIAL to be a doctor, but it doesn't get to practise medicine until it gradualtes from medical school and gets a license.

Potential is not Actual.

"Shame on you! Pregnancy is NOT a disease!"

There are two answers for that. The first is: if it's in MY body without MY consent, it's a disease if I say it is.

And the second is: if it's not a disease, then why are most doctors so nosily interested in it?

"Most abortions are performed out of convenience for the woman and not because of some detected defect in the child."

So what? It's the woman's body that is being used for the pregnancy. Should she not have a voice and vote regarding whether or not it is convenient for her?

"Perhaps if abortion were outlawed women would think twice about sleeping with someone."

Aaaaahhh...at last....the truth comes out. You want to control sex and punish women who like it. Dream on, baby; it don't cost nothin'.

"I'm not trying to force my opinions on anybody...."

All evidence to the contrary.

"In conclusion I'm not the one to decide the penalty. The Almighty Creator does. I can assure you it won't be pretty when He casts judgement on those who have taken His laws into their own hands."

And for those who think your "Creator" actually exists, or has the inclination and/or power to do any such thing, maybe you've managed to make a point. What I don't understand is why you insist on trying to make it to people who don't care.

Anonymous said...

I am most certainly willing AND capable of answering your question: the earthly penalty for getting pregnant is having the child. There are MANY birth control methods which can be used with 99% success rate. There simply is NO excuse to allowing yourself to get pregnant these days. The rhythm method, believe it or not, is quite effective in preventing pregnancy if performed properly. It's just a matter of knowing your body. There are also wonderful things called ovulation predictor kits which tell you which days you can become pregnant (as you know there is only a 1-2 day window). With everything available in 2009 there simply are NO excuses. The earthly punishment for for an illegal abortion is, of course, infection and possible death. The answer? Prevention! Life isn't meant to be too convenient. This is one of those circumstances where you make your bed and you have to lay in it. The answer is NOT killing an innocent human being like some kind of residual problem from the poor choices one has made. The problem is that there are WAY too many rights today which gives everyone the false assumption that they can do whatever the hell they want. While its great to enjoy freedom it should NEVER be at the expense of another human being. Your side chooses who should live and who shouldn't based solely upon which individual is living in the here and now (woman) as opposed to the potential life in whichever stage of gestation it's in. It used to be that women only sought first-trimester abortions. Now you can pretty much kill your child at ANY time. When do we, as moral citizens, draw the line and confess that we are allowing a generation of people to be erased from existence? Have you ever wondered why our world is imperfect and there is so much pain and suffering? Simply put, this short life is not all there is. We are tested, as human beings, to prove our morality for entrance into the next life (which happens to be eternity). What you do here dictates the wonderful existence or the horrific torture you will receive eternally in the next life. I'm sure I will be criticized as being a "crazy religious zealot" but everyone is entitled to their own belief system. You may not believe in the afterlife but, consider this, what if you're wrong and you haven't followed God's laws (then you're pretty much fucked when you pass on; as we all do at some point unfortunately). You must know, deep in your conscience, that killing one for the preservation of another is not okay whether you will admit it or not.

HB said...

"everyone is entitled to their own belief system"

I agree. I hope this means that, after repeated promises to do so, you will leave this blog and stop attacking people who do not share your beliefs.

Anonymous said...

I will address the most ridiculous comment I have EVER heard from your side..... "And the second is: if it's not a disease, then why are most doctors so nosily interested in it?" Come on Lady Janus! I cannot believe a person could actually publish this statement. Doctors are interested in child development in the womb because it is the miracle of life! Scientists and doctors alike are simply baffled about how this whole process truly works. The medical profession has yet to understand what even triggers labor at this point or how to effectively mimic the womb. It is such a mystery that it screams of divine invention. To kill a life because it creates an inconvenience in your life is pure selfishness. You don't wanna have a baby then don't be playing the game that creates it or use the MANY measures available to prevent it (it's not rocket science)! And, no Janus, I'm not trying to punish people for having sex...it's called responsibility. We do more in exerting self-control when we diet (which I'm sure at some point in your life you have done) than we do in abstaining from sex these days. Just like a magic pill won't help you shed those unwanted pounds, abortion will not help you (in the long term) to shed an unwanted pregnancy. The years of guilt, shame, and even sometimes infertility follow the woman for a LIFETIME because truly, deep down inside our wonderful sub-conscious, we know that this "clump of cells" is a human being. Finally I will say to both Lady Janus and HB that if you do not care about my posts then simply don't read them and, for pete's sake, don't feel the need to respond. BTW HB I only said I was leaving once but since people kept posting I thought I would address my opinion as well. Remember there are 2 sides to each issue; I've courteously listened to yours so please respectfully listen to mine. If you don't like what I have to say just simply skip over to another blog or, like previously stated, don't address my posts. By addressing my posts it makes me feel as though you do take an interest in my perspective.

Magos said...

Again you simply fail to answer the question.

What punishment within our judicial system should a women receive for having an illegal abortion?

As in jail time, probation, counselling , community service, a promise never to do it again.

Infection/death isn't a punishment it's a possible consequence of a surgical procedure, but it's not a punishment.

I mean step in front of a judge and he says "We must sentence you to ___ for having an illegal abortion."

You know what I meant the first time I asked and you're unwilling to answer the question.

Ya in 2009 we have a ton of methods for birth control, but we also have a bunch of slack-jawed fucks who treat that it's immoral to use them and fight to teach kids that not doing it is all the information they need.

Are you all that surprised when ignorance and instinct lead to mistakes. Probably not because you think women should just close their legs like the misogynist you are.

As to the killing of one to save another. If my wife's life were in jeopardy because of pregnancy then my wife's life comes first. I don't even have to think about that.

Since I'll be burning in hell for allowing people to exercise their free will and make their own choices. Why bother fighting so hard, eternal justice should be enough for you.

The fact that you fight so hard shows me that deep down you know that there isn't any punishment waiting. You're afraid that if they don't feel punished now that there won't be consequences.

Still waiting on that breast cancer research paper. You know, unless you're a liar or willfully ignorant and just parroting something another liar told you.

And please use some semblance of paragraphs.

Magos said...

Oh I'd also like to point out that you're a confirmed liar.

You first said you were not-religious and you last post was filled with religious crap. You claim we might call you a religious zealot as well. Funny for such a non religious girl can be so easily confused with a religious zealot.

How does lying sit well with your god, it's a sin equal to the sin of murder you accuse everyone here of committing or being accessory to.

Go craw in a hole, and take care of the log in your eye before you worry about the speck of dust in ours.

HB said...

"BTW HB I only said I was leaving once but since people kept posting I thought I would address my opinion as well. Remember there are 2 sides to each issue; I've courteously listened to yours so please respectfully listen to mine. If you don't like what I have to say just simply skip over to another blog or, like previously stated, don't address my posts."

So I should leave a blog written by a fellow activist, one that I've been following for a long time, because someone stomps in and spews vitriol. If I do not respond to your comments, I help make this an unsafe space for women seeking support (please do not respond by saying you're only brining an opposing view. There are a *few* sites on the Internet where people can find this - and more reliable - information). I respect anti-abortionists' views. I do not respect the preaching, hypocrisy, or abuse evident every week at the clinic or in many of your posts.

HB said...

*brining = bringing. Spelling fail.

Anonymous said...

Pregnancy that is terminated by induced abortion results in increased breast cancer risk in two ways. First, estrogen stimulation in early pregnancy causes massive proliferation of Type 1and 2 lobules, where cancers can arise. If abortion terminates the pregnancy before 32 weeks, these lobules are not protected from cancer by progressive maturation to Type 3 and 4 lobules, as they would have been, had the pregnancy continued to term. So the woman is left with a much greater number of cancer-vulnerable cells than she had before she became pregnant. She is also left with a much greater number of cancer-vulnerable cells than she would have had if she had continued the pregnancy to term.

Secondly, this increased number of vulnerable cells are exposed to extremely high levels of estrogen during pregnancy, as well as during subsequent menstruation, which can induce cancer cells to form. Without the balancing effect of the marked progesterone rise of late pregnancy, estrogen promotes the proliferation of both cancer vulnerable breast tissue and existing tumors.(3,20) Estrogen can even initiate cancers in susceptible women.(3,21-26)Journal of National Cancer Institute, 20-26, Feb. 2008. So there you have it Magos a peer-reviewed study clearly showing the link. However I'm sure, as per usual, you will find an opposing journal article to dispute it because, as you and I both know, most people are pro-choice so the articles debating this particular journal will be in abundance I'm sure.

I will use paragraphs but it will only make my argument appear even larger (I was simply trying to save space but...here goes). Why do you jump on the chance to call me a liar? I have absolutely no reason to lie to you or any other pro-choice people. I am not so naive as to think I will change anyone's mind on this topic as, I'm almost positive, you will find a rebuttal at every word I write. Therefore I simply have no agenda or basis with which to lie to anyone. To call someone, whom you do not know, a liar seems preposterous to me. For all you know I could be Henry Morgenthaler sitting at my computer desk testing how faithful you guys really are for this cause!

Just because someone has faith that something greater exists beyond this earth does not make him/her automatically religious just the same as a person who goes golfing is not Tiger Woods. You can dabble in things, pull them into your belief system, and not be COMPLETELY committed to them. I will address the rest at a later time as I don't want to end up writing 2 pages.

Lady Janus said...

"Life isn't meant to be too convenient."

Really? You know this for a fact, do you? Where is your authority for making this statement to people who are perfect strangers to you?

"This is one of those circumstances where you make your bed and you have to lay in it."

Lay, lie, sleep, read, slap and tickle, whatever. Every bed belongs only to the people who occupy it, and is nobody else's business.

"And, no Janus, I'm not trying to punish people for having sex...it's called responsibility."

Yup..."responsibility" is your code word for punishment.

"We do more in exerting self-control when we diet (which I'm sure at some point in your life you have done)"

No. I have never done. I have never seen any need, either in my self or in anyone else.

"While its great to enjoy freedom it should NEVER be at the expense of another human being."

That is something that needs to be discussed with whatever other specific human beings might be affected by a specific freedom. And a fetus is NOT a human being.

"When do we, as moral citizens, draw the line and confess that we are allowing a generation of people to be erased from existence?"

And when did you get the authority to define "moral" for anyone other than yourself?

"Simply put, this short life is not all there is."

Tell you what -- you go on and scout ahead, find out what's "out there," and get back to us on that, okay?

"Finally I will say to both Lady Janus and HB that if you do not care about my posts then simply don't read them and, for pete's sake, don't feel the need to respond."

It's not your posts to which I object; it's your attitude that you are right and everyone else is wrong and only you have all the answers and the rest of us need to live our lives by your standards. I don't care what you do with your life and your body. I am simply putting you on notice: do NOT try to rule my life or my body. I won't stand for it.

Lady Janus said...

As for your little screed on the "link" between breast cancer and abortion, good looking try on the surface, but no sale.

Elevated estrogen is not the "cause" of breast cancer. If that were true, vegans who substitute soy products for meat would be killing themselves by the millions.

Cancer -- any cancer -- is one thing at base: the runaway production of body cells. It's a genetic factor for which we have very few solid answers. There have been some possible/probable triggers proposed and explored, but the basic reason people get cancer is because they have DNA. And the basic reason women get breast cancer is because they have breasts. Everything else is still guesswork, some of it more credible than others. Yours is not.

Magos said...

Nice that you posted the link.

Now explain to me why that is a reason to ban abortions? Yes I'm aware I'm moving the goalpost slightly. An increase in the risk of breast cancer is only a reason why an individual would not have an abortion performed, not a reason the state should tell people how to live their lives.

I'm going to take that post at face value, it doesn't serve my interest to find an opposing article, because I believe the breast cancer link you talk about is a valid argument for person choice.

I believe you are still a liar, whether you have reason or not to lie. You created a fiction of yourself that doesn't fit the typical anti-choice mold and subsequent post have shown your true fundamentalist nature.

I've never met a non-religious person who can claim they might be confused with "a religious zealot" before.

You don't just have the faith of a non religious person, you have the faith in hellfire I expect from a right wing Christian fundamentalist.

There's faith that something greater exists, and then there's you, who have faith that, that "something greater" enjoys punishing people for eternity. I would call you more than just "non-religious" I would call you a sadist, for revelling in that idea.

And as for your lame example, were you Dr. Morgentaler just "testing our faith" I suppose I would still be calling you a liar wouldn't I. And I suppose I'd be right.

And again my question hasn't been answered.

Anonymous said...

Alas I have returned...much to your utter dismay! Lady Janus a couple of things in retort: you seem to be making the false assumption, on many of your posts, that I am forcing my beliefs on others on this site. It is an opinion only and, again, I am NEVER so naive as to think I will ever modify your belief system.

In response to : Lay, lie, sleep, read, slap and tickle, whatever. Every bed belongs only to the people who occupy it, and is nobody else's business.
If "slapping and tickling" leads to the creation of another human then it is the business of other people (especially when it includes the murder of that innocent third party). I will never tire or wane from fighting for this cause and peacefully expressing my views to those who will listen. This does not mean that I am forcing or coercing others to operate under my value system but, again, simply to listen. BTW in proposing my argument I don't use "code words" as they are of absolutely no value to me. I say what I mean and mean what I say wholeheartedly. Responsibility and punishment are not interchangeable. As previously stated there are far too many ways to avoid getting pregnant that I simply cannot understand how someone (rape aside) could allow themselves to become with child. For example when people observe someone who is 500 lbs we, as a society, question how they have allowed themselves to become that large. Becoming pregnant, comparable to getting fat, is based solely on personal decision and, in the case of abortion, irresponsibility.

Finally I would like to again state for the record that I AM NOT trying to rule anyone's life or body. Ultimately you and yours are going to do what you have set your minds to do. God gives us the free will to CHOOSE what we want to do. It's just a question of whether or not it is moral. I have not decided these laws they are found in that little book which has been around for thousands of years. BTW no other belief has acquired such martyrdom as has been observed in the Christian faith so there must be some credibility to it. Atheism has never produced a bible or had as many people die for its cause. Like I've said if I'm wrong then no harm and no foul but if I'm right there's going to be a lot of "splainin' to do!"

Magos I know you've been famished for my answer to your question. In the case of rape I think a woman should be given a minimum of 1 year post-abortion counselling and the perpetrator, if found, to be punished for the crime of rape. In the case of the woman who has displyed reckless and irresponsible sexual behaviour with the endagerment/murder of another human being I think it only justified that her AND her partner be charged with murder and sentenced accordingly. My belief is that pregnancy is 100% preventable, a fetus is a human being, and the murder of that human being is inherently wrong.

The only reason I have suggested you calling me a religious zealot in future posts is because your side tends to harp on us being "racist, sexist, anti-gay, born-again bigots who can go away". I call it Lady Gaga syndrome where you attempt to draw as many people into your cause/popularity by pretending to agree with their morals and telling these same people that we are against them when, in reality, we are not. It is a ploy to gain popularity with other people and was used by President Obama during his campaign. If he once said he was opposed to abortion, his popularity would have GREATLY decreased and his election would have NEVER happened...and you know I'm right on this. When you are anti-choice you are IMMEDIATELY rendered unpopular so I greatly admire my fortitude in the face of a seemingly uphill battle against the vast numbers of people who consider themselves pro-choice.

Finally if you are a firm believer that this life is our one and only (with all of its unpredictable patterns of pain and suffering the world over) then I truly feel sorry for you!

Magos said...

Thanks for finally answering my question. I wasn't famished for it, I just thought it was odd that you seemed incapable of answering a simple question and when pressed showed complete ignorance to what I was asking.

What about all the religious nuts that think condoms/birth control/etc.. are sinful? What about all the religious nuts that would rather keep teens in ignorance about sex? They share responsibility in unwanted pregnancies. Will you go on record saying that these groups fight our interests in reducing the number of abortions that occur?

Now that you've claimed a Christian faith, you've confirmed that you lied when you said you were "not religious" Why would you lie? What purpose did you have? You admitted earlier that you would have no reason to lie, so I'm at a lose as to why you would do it.

I can't see what Obama has to do with anything. It seems like for your particular situation Obama is the best president you could have asked for.

Lady Janus said...

"...you seem to be making the false assumption, on many of your posts, that I am forcing my beliefs on others on this site. It is an opinion only and, again, I am NEVER so naive as to think I will ever modify your belief system."

I never said you were trying to modify anyone else's belief system. I said you were trying to make us live by your standards. Quite a different thing altogether.

"For example when people observe someone who is 500 lbs we, as a society, question how they have allowed themselves to become that large."

No, "we" do not. Maybe you do. I don't, and neither does anyone I know. Nobody's business except the person himself. You don't get to judge.

"My belief is that pregnancy is 100% preventable, a fetus is a human being, and the murder of that human being is inherently wrong."

That's YOUR belief. It's not mine. You go ahead and live by it; no one is stopping you. But you may NOT impose it on me or anyone else who does not share your belief!

Please tell me you understand what I just said. Not that you agree with it, but that you UNDERSTAND it.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

I'm glad that you "greatly admire" your own "fortitude in the face of a seemingly uphill battle against the vast numbers of people who consider themselves pro-choice."

What a refreshing display of arrogance paired with ignorance.

-E

Katriana said...

Anonymous, are you a Christian, or are you Jewish? I'm confused, because you have claimed to be both on different posts. Also, 50% of women who have had an abortion became pregnant because their method of birth control failed, so becomming pregnant is not always because a man or woman was acting irresponsibly. Finally, there are Catholic doctors who are against birth control, and refuse to prescribe it. Going to see another doctor is not always an easy option, at least in this province, as there is up to a seven year waiting list for family physicians. I think you should do some research before you come out these ridiculous statements. It makes you seem ignorant.

ael said...

"Atheism has never produced a bible or had as many people die for its cause."

Thank god for that.

Anonymous, I really want to hear more about Lady Gaga Syndrome and what you think of Lady Gaga in general.

killjoy said...

"BTW no other belief has acquired such martyrdom as has been observed in the Christian faith so there must be some credibility to it."

Wow, that's just...wow.

Logic fail. On so many levels.

Also, guess what? If you want to have me imprisoned for failing to behave according to your beliefs, YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR BELIEFS ON ME.

Might I add, duh.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Anonymous. But there are no children involved. That's just the truth (read; fact). Child either describes a stage of development or a relationship that can only be referenced outside of the uterus. Whether one is a human being or not, makes no difference. Organ recipients DIE on the waiting list because someone else's right to bodily autonomy trumps their right to life. But your movement would attempt to give fetuses that right which means you would give them more rights than anyone born. Sorry, I don't see the correlation between giving fetuses the status of personhood and giving them more rights than ACTUAL persons.

You see, a fetus is clinically a person when it is viable and legally a person when it is born alive. To grant fetuses personhood before they are viable means that one grants parasitic fetuses and fetus in fetu personhood, which means, by the logic you've used, that no one can elect to have one or the other removed if they are not immediately threatening their life. BUT, they are allowed to do so.

Anonymous said...

PLers, by default, only focus on the fetal life. If they didn't, they would realize that a woman, a non-obliviate, sensate, thinking and feeling human, canNOT be relegated to the level of a fetus (which IS what this movement does because they ignore the social, mental, physical, medical, legal and emotional agency that a woman has by promoting their stance) withOUT denigrating, dehumanizing, and demeaning women and the role they play in pregnancy OR they would realize that ALL rights to bodily autonomy should be trumped by the right to life, because it is such a non-essential right that people can be deprived of easily, as you believe.

Anonymous said...

"While its great to enjoy freedom it should NEVER be at the expense of another human being."

Funnily enough, I mentioned a situation where it was. Amazingly, very few PLers advocate for one's rights to bodily autonomy to be affected in part or fully, in that case. I can only assume that this is because removing that right in THOSE circumstances would affect YOU (general you) unwillingly. Which IS what leads me, et al, to the conclusion that pregnancy is a punishment for women having consensual sex.

"Life isn't meant to be too convenient."

Umm, what...? That sounds like a rapist saying that forcing a woman to have sex is simply an inconvenience (much more so, yes, by your onw logic, than pregnancy) so it should be allowed on those grounds. Hmmmm....

Btw, MOST women who have had abortions were using some form of contraception.

Anonymous said...

If "slapping and tickling" leads to the creation of another human then it is the business of other people (especially when it includes the murder of that innocent third party).>>

That's just the other side of the punishment card. Modifying the behaviour of women by enforcing pregnancy on them for experiencing the same sexual freedoms as their male counterparts who may do so, themselves, withOUT an equally enforceable reprisal, IS punishment.

Abortion is not murder. Never was, even when it was illegal. Several reasons why. I'll leave it to you to think why that is so, hein?

Pregnancy is not 100% preventable. That is pure fantasy based on nothing more than abstinence, itself, NOT on the practice of abstinence, which is more legitimate because we are comparing the PRACTICES of other forms of contraception. Even so, I WILL remind you that MOST women who had an abortion used SOME form of contraception.

Alysha said...

Just a point Anonymous. Just because we can't explain something, doesn't make it "divine." We couldn't explain many things a 100 years ago that we have perfectly reasonable answers for now. Just in case you ask, an example might be rising of the sun, or the movement of the tides, or electricity, or that the world is round, or that all the continents fit together at one point in time, or how to fly....
So, just because we can't explain NOW what induces labour (probably a chemical/hormone) or how life is "created", doesn't mean we won't be able to eventually. I suggest you read Richard Dawkins, "The God Delusion". He deals with many of the fallacies of religion.
Lastly, please don't feel sorry for me because I don't believe anything happens when I die (other than turning into dirt). It is patronizing and insults my high level of intelligence. I have "heard" the arguments from both sides and at the end of the day, I'm not willing to believe there is an invisible man in the sky who sees all, knows all, loves all, in a world with billions of people, and really cares what I do with my life, as opposed to the millions of children dying in Africa and Asia and around the world. Also, MY problem with religion (one of them, aside from the MILLIONS murdered in the crusades and other incidents in the name of religion) is that while birth control is good and helpful, the Pope doesn't allow birth control so thousands more babies are born to uneducated, oppressed women because some man in a giant white dunce cap says they can't protect themselves. Just a point.

Anonymous said...

Hello everyone! I have returned since I know you have been weeping for my arrival tsk...tsk. This will definitely be my last post. Apparently one cannot go over the 4, 067 word count on here so I will keep it short and to the point...addressing each person with one firm point. Any responses to my post will be in vain as I will never return to this site. I have had my say and that is all I have set out to do.

Magos: I NEVER claimed a Christian faith. I simply believe in an afterlife and divine judgment. A person can have a set of beliefs without defining themselves within a particular religion. I am jewish by heritage and do not identify with one religion.
Obama knew full well, as do all politicians (and Lady Gaga), that professing a view opposing either gay marriage or abortion will make your popularity with the masses plummet rapidly. I tend to question if they truly believe the things they claim to stand for or if its just a ploy to gain popularity (things that make you go hmmm...)

Lady Janus: Highly doubtful that 1.you have never dieted (you must be the less than 5% who is actually happy with their body 2.you have NEVER judged anyone...please give me a break)

You need to cool off and realize that I am not going to stop you from doing what you want with your body...I know you will do it anyway. I just wanted to tell you that I think your belief system is flawed.

Anonymous: By posting your own argument you are showing the arrogance and ignorance that you write about...not to mention a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

Katriana: Jewish is a hertiage AND a religion (I identify with the former thank you). I think you have to back up your 50% claim because it's utter B.S.. You are showing the utter ignorance you claim of me by writing a post such as this without a credible link. I think you just made it up personally.

Ael: Thanking God for not creating an atheistic bible? The irony of that statement...ha!

Killjoy:the name suits you. Your beliefs are clearly not what mine are so your logic is considered MAJORLY flawed in my perception. In my view allowing the killing of innocent human beings makes for a bigger "DUH".

Anonymous: Have you talked with a fetus lately? How the hell can you assume that a fetus is not a human being? You'd like to believe it's a clump of cells so you can JUSTIFY killing it for your own benefit.

Anonymous: I have never dehumanized a woman....mostly because I am one. I just believe that there are 2 lives in question here.

Anonymous: Funnily isn't a word. Didn't bring myself to read past that major transgression!

Anonymous: Linkie please...where are all of you getting that most women who have abortions have failed birth control? I want actual percentages people!

Alysha:if you know you are uneducated and/or oppressed keep your legs closed (it's not that difficult). There are rules in life to prevent people from doing whatever they want (e.g stop signs to allow for pedestrians to cross). If everyone does whatever the hell they want this life would be chaos. By my estimation it already is!

Thank you everyone for your time and remember abortion kills innocent children. We will learn to regret this human abomination, like so many others in past history, in due time.

The Pedgehog said...

"Funnily" IS a word (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/funnily). Is "linkie"?

Magos said...

"BTW no other belief has acquired such martyrdom as has been observed in the Christian faith so there must be some credibility to it. Atheism has never produced a bible or had as many people die for its cause"

You're bullshit religious statements certain fit Christian theology, especially the judgemental asshole side of it.

Enjoy you lies.

Lady Janus said...

"Lady Janus: Highly doubtful that 1.you have never dieted (you must be the less than 5% who is actually happy with their body 2.you have NEVER judged anyone...please give me a break)"

Doubt all you want. It's free. But the fact is that I have never dieted because I don't believe that anyone's value depends on his weight. And no, I do not judge people by how they look.

"I just wanted to tell you that I think your belief system is flawed."

See, here's the thing...it can't be flawed. It's a belief system, not a gemstone! And it's mine, not yours. You don't get to say what it is unless it is yours.

"Anonymous: Funnily isn't a word."

Yeah, it is: http://www.onelook.com/?w=funnily&ls=a Oopsie?

ael said...

Three things:

"Ael: Thanking God for not creating an atheistic bible? The irony of that statement...ha!"

Yes, the statement was intentionally ironic. It was in fact what some scholar refer to as a "joke".

"Obama knew full well, as do all politicians (and Lady Gaga), that professing a view opposing either gay marriage or abortion will make your popularity with the masses plummet rapidly. I tend to question if they truly believe the things they claim to stand for or if its just a ploy to gain popularity (things that make you go hmmm...)"

Since we're talking about American politicians and being incredibly reductive: polls show that Americans are split on gay marriage and abortion. It's usually close to 50/50 +/- 5 either way depending on the poll/year. So I think that you're "Lady Gaga Syndrome" does not exist.

"BTW no other belief has acquired such martyrdom as has been observed in the Christian faith so there must be some credibility to it."

Thinking about that more: you're saying that martyring yourself for your faith is good and a sign of the credibility of that faith. How is that not a justification of suicide bombers?

And I'm still waiting for your thoughts on Lady Gaga - this is an important issue. The people deserve an answer.

ael said...

"scholar" should have been scholars, "you're" should have been your.

Rabble said...

I'm not sure if anyone's linked these yet, but I'd just like to throw in some factual sprinkles on to the lovely Pedgehog's arguments.
1. The APA disproved PAS in 1988. Countless studies since then have continued to disprove it's existence.
2. Most of the pictures of aborted fetuses are staged or downright fake.
3. Stats Can says 90% of abortions are done in the first twelve weeks, before the fetus has a distinct head.
4.Stats can also says only 0.7% of abortions are done past the 20th-week.
5. The CDC has shown Pregnancy is 13 times more likely to result in death than abortion.
6. Giving birth is also ten times more likely to have complications than pregnancy.
Some links:
The Effects of Pregnancy: http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/004.htm#back
Why Abortion is Moral:
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html
Hope these help. ^__^
Love,

Rabble

feministincowboyboots said...

Okay so it is probably too late to leave this comment, but I am amazed that one post above declared that getting pregnant was like getting fat. The idea is that both obesity and pregnancy are avoidable, but the underlying assumption is that both conditions are based on personal weakness and lack of control. According to this logic, getting fat means being gluttonous and taking excessive pleasure in food, while getting pregnant means being lustful and taking excessive plesure in sex (that is assuming that pleasure can be had without consequences). Both are sinful according to Christian tradition. The anti-abortion position is essentially opposed to bodily pleasure, and tries to punish women who are undisciplined, thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. This is indeed a moralizing position, but one based on making sure women take their lumps for their 'mistakes,' not primarily about protecting embryos.

Not Guilty said...

Anonymous: Of my quite excellent argument, THAT is what you decided to attack? Want to know why so many women are uneducated? Male oppression. How do these women get pregnant? Male oppression. This isn't a simple "keep your legs closed" problem. I so wish everything in my world could be totally black and white and oh so simple. Unfortunately, I live in the real world where shades of grey abound.

Anonymous said...

By posting your own argument you are showing the arrogance and ignorance that you write about...not to mention a healthy dose of hypocrisy.>>

Cite? Or are you going to fail to provide arguments to back up your claim, now that you've asked me to? Oh, that's right, you're not coming back, so, yes, you are. I guess that's the difference between you and me since I will provide my sources when asked but, you, on the other hand will not. Although, I do have to admit that it is strange that you leave before someone can cite those sources.... Oh, wait....

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3429402.pdf

...I guess you just didn't want Katriana or I to demonstrate how 'un'ignorant we really are? Btw, I have a fairly good grasp of the English, Japanese, Spanish and French words and grammar. I know words that few other people know. I think I know when something is a word or not. As Lady Janus and Pedge have pointed out, as well. Whoops, there go your assumptions, again, right?

Anonymous said...

"In my view allowing the killing of innocent human beings makes for a bigger "DUH"."

"Have you talked with a fetus lately? How the hell can you assume that a fetus is not a human being? You'd like to believe it's a clump of cells so you can JUSTIFY killing it for your own benefit."

Since you couldn't address what either Killjoy or I were saying, you went into a state of denial? Killjoy was merely referencing your comment about forcing one's beliefs on another and you went off on a tangent snd think that proves something? Sorry to disappoint you but no, it doesn't. In my case, you ignore my reference to parasitic fetuses and fetus in fetu and regurgiate your claim that a fetus is a human being because I haven't talked to it? Uh, newsflash for you, I can't talk to it because IT CAN'T TALK. So, tell me, what, in there and my reference to parasitic fetuses and fetus in fetu, says that it is a human being?

You completely ignored EVerything else I said, too. No, I justify the right to CHOOSE by pointing out, as I DID, THAT no one born has the right to exist at the expense of someone else's right to bodily autonomy/self-determination. Your singular lack of understanding of that FACT is often attributed to someone of the PL 'persuasion'. So, wait a minute, I just said no one born has that right, so why would I try to justify ANYthing by saying that a fetus is just a clump of cells, hmmm...? Btw, cells are living, anyways so your next claim got debunked before it was even started.

Anonymous said...

"I have never dehumanized a woman....mostly because I am one. I just believe that there are 2 lives in question here."

Reading comprehension is your friend. I believe someone already informed you that being a misogynist is irrelevant to one's sex. It holds true for dehumanizing women, too. I already knew you were a woman. I read posts before I comment, after all....

I believe there are two lives, as well. I never said there weren't. What I WAS talking about, and you would have realized if you had any interest in reading, was the moral, etc, status of a woman compared to the moral, etc, status of the fetus. And, I do believe, I was talking about the fact that a fetus doesn't deserve more rights than anyone born...? If you don't understand that, I suggest you go back and re-read the previous comments before coming back to re-read the above....

Anonymous said...

"if you know you are uneducated and/or oppressed keep your legs closed"

Umm, and you say you're not dehumanizing women? You think punishing a woman for having a uterus is justifiable and not dehumanizing? Based on the fact that a woman can get pregnant you would deny her the same sexual freedoms as her male counterparts AND deny her the same rights that everyone else has: The right to self-determination that supercedes the right to life.

Abortion does not '1. kill 2. innocent 5. children' 1. Abortion, itself, is the removal of the fetal placenta from the uterus before the fetus reaches viability. The fetus dies due to incompatibility with life upon separation from the uterus. Kind of like an organ recipient dies on the waiting list due to incompatibility with life upon separation from a working organ. Or do you call that killing? 2. A fetus has the same capacity to be innocent or guilty as a table does. Or do you call your table innocent? 3. There is no medically/legally recognized definition for fetuses that refers to them as children. Or do you call adolescents, adults?

Yes, ProCHOICERS HAVE come to recognize the abomination of forced gestation as a nine month violation comparable to rape or slavery. I hope you will, too... in time.

Anonymous said...

Wow anonymous...you're fuckin nuts...get a life! You could have submitted this as the weakest essay ever written in human history. I mean who submits FOUR times at 6:00 in the morning. I'm sorry but I just had to comment on your pathetic nature and...ummmm.argument (cough).

Magos said...

Anonymous said...
Wow anonymous...you're fuckin nuts


I love when anonymous bitches about anonymous.

Anonymous said...

Uh, sorry, Anonymous, but your lack of credible evidence to back up your claim that that was a weak 'essay' leads me to believe that I am not the one who is 'fucking nuts".

Btw, the posting limit does not allow someone to type more than some odd 4,000 characters. And THAT SHOULD be obvious, too, but for some reason, it's not...?

Never heard of different time zones, I guess.



These comments are vetted and posted by the mods, anyways. That IS generally how these blogs work. So, wow. JUST wow.

Summer said...

OK, this is old but I just stumbled upon it today.

"if you know you are uneducated and/or oppressed keep your legs closed"

Seriously? And how, exactly, do you propose that happens? Tell me, in your world are all men sparkly and float on rainbow colored clouds of happiness? Because over here, in reality, when you are uneducated and oppressed the stance of your legs is generally not up to you.

Anonymous said...

I know I'm late joining this debate, but the ridiculous claims about breast cancer made by Anonymous (the one who advocates for the oppression of women and then complains when she gets called misogynistic) need to be addressed.

First of all, she's got her facts wrong about lobule types and their vulnerability to cancer. Type 1 lobules are predominant before pregnancy, and they are the least likely to become cancerous. Types 2 and 3 are associated with pregnancy. Type 3 are the most likely to become cancerous, and are the predominant type when lactation has ceased. Type 4 lobules are associated with lactation, and they turn back into type 3 lobules afterwards. But get this: besides a gradual regression as the woman ages, type 3 lobules - the ones that are most likely to become cancerous - stay the way they are. Nothing happens at the end of a pregnancy to protect you from breast cancer. In fact, you probably end up with less type 3 nodules if you terminate the pregnancy part way through. Not that that's entirely relevant since the link between lobule types and cancer is still a hypothesis.

She did NOT cite a peer-reviewed study (she didn't even cite her source properly). She copied stuff off other websites; stuff that was based on a study about hormone replacement during menopause, and on some scholarly articles which also had nothing to do with abortion. In short, she did not submit any proof whatsoever of their being a link between breast cancer and abortion.

Now let me list a bunch of groups whose official position is that there is no link between abortion and breast cancer:
-The National Cancer Institute
-The Canadian Cancer Society
-The American Cancer Society
-The World Health Organization
-The American Medical Organization
-The American Coalition of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
My favourite is the NCI's, though: "In February 2003, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) convened a workshop of over 100 of the world’s leading experts who study pregnancy and breast cancer risk. Workshop participants reviewed existing population-based, clinical, and animal studies on the relationship between pregnancy and breast cancer risk, including studies of induced and spontaneous abortions. They concluded that having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer. [...] NCI regularly reviews and analyzes the scientific literature on many topics, including various risk factors for breast cancer. Considering the body of literature that has been published since 2003, when NCI held this extensive workshop on early reproductive events and cancer, the evidence overall still does not support early termination of pregnancy as a cause of breast cancer."

So if you're considering abortion, or you've had one, and are concerned about breast cancer: don't worry, it's just another anti-choice scare tactic.

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